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blackwave
Do I look like I'm
joking

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: SoCal, OC
Posts: 1798

quote:

Originally posted by lullabud
ironically
though, the pringles can isn't metal and hence
doesn't work the way you'd expect that design to work. the
cantenna page has more details on it. i think that's why the
pringles works well directionally as better than the
internal card antennas omni... did that make sense?

I also understood that it was not
required for the casing to be metal in substance, so I opted
for plastic...

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05-31-2002 01:37
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blackwave
Do I look like I'm
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Registered: Apr
2002
Location: SoCal, OC
Posts: 1798

quote:

Originally posted by ZipperSeven
Blackwave: I
actually think that the link you have was the link that
inspired us to build the pringles can. As to
the...hmmmm....'dildo-tenna', seems like it could work, but
it's not a waveguide with no outer metal shell, and so
diameter doesn't matter (as long as the element is centered
correctly). The key pieces in the pringles cantenna are the
internal structure, as g0tr00t's pimp tight picture shows.

I believe I have read otherwise on the
theory behind these cantenna's... I thought I read that a
casing of metal was not necessary for these since it was based
on the internals, their construct, shape, spacing etc.. the
pringles can does not allow for the ideal mechanics of the
wavelength... and so I thought perhaps something similar but
larger may.

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05-31-2002 01:39
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

check out the
kool stamp yagi here:

http://seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/DirectionalYagi#line7

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05-31-2002 06:58
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outcast_one
cut/hack/modify

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: MA USA
Posts: 25

Antenna pics

The pictures
I posted of the Mobile Mark are very close in quality to the
original 640x480 pics. The antenna does not photograph too
well because it is reflective, and my crappy kodak camera will
not focus well up close. I will be buying a better camera
soon, I may photograph the Mobile mark again with the new one.

The "pringles can" antenna is the last one I would try
to build. It is the poorest example of a "yagi" that people
build. Everything about its design is wrong. A simple coffee
can antenna will outperform it, and is far easier to build.
You could also try to build a copy of the Comtelco antenna.
This antenna works well mounted on the rear view mirror facing
forward, or aiming out a side window. Link is below.

http://devices.planet-wireless.de/comtelco/index.html

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05-31-2002 07:36
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

outcast_one,
thanks. i've already buillt the
comtelco one thanks to u and otaku42 (see his page comtelco
page at the bottom).
i also have a cantenna but both of these antennas
are too directional for stumbling. that's why i'm looking for
an omni design. the antenna i posted at the beginning of this
thread is working pretty well but i just want something to
compare it against.

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05-31-2002 07:39
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ZenOps
Mini Stumbler

Registered: May
2002
Location:
Posts: 7

Although I'm
a newbie (and just learning about how to make good antenna's)
I'd thought I'd mention this, since people seem to really like
the magnetic mount.

The strongest magnets ever
manufactured, are inside of harddrives. I have broken apart
many dead harddrives *just* to get the arm magnets. Great
thing about them is that they are usually solidly attached to
a well shielded piece of solid metal with holes in it for easy
mounting of whatever you might want to attach to
it.

Last edited by
ZenOps on 05-31-2002 at 08:15 PM

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05-31-2002 08:03
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

interesting
idea. now i have a use for some of those old junk drives old loudspeakers also have good strong magnets. a
good source is those old rotted out speakers in the back of
your car.

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05-31-2002 08:39
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blackwave
Do I look like I'm
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Registered: Apr
2002
Location: SoCal, OC
Posts: 1798

quote:

Originally posted by ZenOps
The strongest
magnets ever manufactured, are inside of harddrives.

I am sure... though I have noticed while
destroying 7 hard-drives and collecting the magnets that they
break rather easily... they are not tempered to withstand too
much impact.. though if you try this at home readers, to watch
out where your fingers are then they get stuck together
because they can pinch pretty hard when snapping
together.

Also I have noticed at some hardware
swapmeets people try to sell these ex-hardrive magnets from
the drives and do little "magic" tricks with
them...

btw, welcome ZenOps.

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05-31-2002 09:00
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sparafina
yatta!

Registered: May
2002
Location: AUS/LAX/DCA
Posts: 133

The
get-off-grid/alt energy folks suggest using magets from the
magnetron in microwaves for their homebuilt generators. Never
tried it, but I've been cruising around looking for a dead
microwave on the curb. Stumbling meshes with my other hobby of
dumpster diving/curbside crawl. Gawd I love free
crap.

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05-31-2002 10:44
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ZipperSeven
Write that
down.

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 127

Geez, and we
just threw out an old microwave. I had considered pulling it
apart to salvage parts from it, but it was at the curb and
picked up before I thought about.

Yes, the yagi design
doesn't have to be metal. The inner lining of the pringles can
has so little metal content in the lining that it actually
does nothing. The important metal part is the bottom plate,
which becomes a reflector. It is the waveguide antenna
that needs to be all metal, those are the coffee can and my
pirouline cantennas. Those have no internal structure. I mean,
you put a hole in a can, how hard can that be? I've been
looking for a good omni design to build, and so I too am
itching for good specs on the mobile mark and fab-corp omni
antennas, as well as planning to build a clone of the
lincomatic/otaku/outcast_one type.

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05-31-2002 11:41
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

zipper,
i
think yr right about the yagis...just about every other yagi
i've seen is housed in a pvc pipe...flickenger himself said he
knew jack about antenna design...

btw, the mobile mark
IS the fab corp antenna.

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06-01-2002 12:12
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ZipperSeven
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Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 127

Huh, who
actually builds them then? I thought they l00ked
alike.

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06-01-2002 12:27
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

fabcorp is
just a reseller. remember they are a tiny op...how could they
build all that stuff?

they are only $38 in quantity
>1...i am almost tempted to get one to try out if i can get
someone to buy the 2nd one...
i don't have any commercial
antennas to compare my homebrews to. something tells me that
it won't be much better than a homebrew though. that's why i
wanted to build one. but now i'm pretty sure we'll never be
able to get exact enuf measurements to build one unless
someone is willing to put their calipers to one.
just a few
mm off and yr SWR can go thru the roof from what i've seen w/
EZNEC.

wish i could org a local antenna shootout to see
how good my stuff really stacks up against the overpriced
commercial stuff.

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06-01-2002 12:33
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sparafina
yatta!

Registered: May
2002
Location: AUS/LAX/DCA
Posts: 133

quote:

Originally posted by ZipperSeven
planning to
build a clone of the lincomatic/otaku/outcast_one type.

I started building one today, so I made a
template in visio, here it is in .gif. Not sure how folks are
printing it so measure twice, cut once, yatta, yatta

sparafina has attached this image:

Last edited by
sparafina on 06-01-2002 at 08:10 PM

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06-01-2002 08:07
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

quote:

Originally posted by ZipperSeven

My next
project is to build a patch antenna, based on the patch
design which floated around here recently (perhaps sage of
sages blackwave will know exactly which link I mean) which
was built in a tupperware sandwich container.

btw, though you can't tell from the pix,
it's actually considerably smaller than a sandwich container.
that's one thing i like about this antenna. it's nice and
compact.

if you build it, i also recommend that you
support the patch on all 4 corners...the spacing will be a lot
more accurate.

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06-01-2002 10:15
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ZipperSeven
Write that
down.

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 127

What diameter
are you guys using for the bottom panel? I guess that really
determines the size of the container that it's mounted in.

Lincomatic: I think I have just the solution for
spacing the plates: I have these little rubber pieces with
adhesive backings, the kind you stick to stuff to keep it from
scratching the surface you put it on. They can be trimmed to
the perfect height, I believe. I'll let yous guys
know.

Sparafina: Thanx for the template. I think I can
actually scrounge up a piece of brass that I can cut both
from.

Also: do you guys think that there could be a
negative impact by using copper instead of brass? My sister
uses copper plates that are probably the right gauge for her
art projects. I could grab one of those instead.

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06-02-2002 12:11
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

copper is a
better conductor, so isn't it better than brass?
i made
mine out of steel. would be interesting to see the diff i in
performance w/ different metals.

otaku42's page says
90mm for the ground plane. i cut mine a little smaller to fit
in the container by squaring off 2 edges (the container was
rectangular). here's otaku42's link again.

let us know
how the rubber spacers work. sounds like a good
sol'n.

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06-02-2002 12:25
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

just did more
EZNEC analysis of the omni whips. i just don't get why 5/8wave
is supposed to be good. 5/8 wave (76.875mm) has SWR of
7->5.1 over the band and max gain 2.95dB @ 15deg elevation.
my 89mm has SWR 1.1->1.7 and max 4.32dB @ 45deg. @ 15deg
it's only 0.86dB, though. doesn't the high SWR just kill the
5/8wave anyway?

any hams out there? maybe the prob is i
just really don't know what the heck i'm doing w/ EZNEC. but i
don't have a spare N jack to test w/ the 5/8wave at the
moment.

been stumbling more w/ the whip and it kicks my
patch...i've found several AP's i didn't know existed with
it...prob because of the wider beam width. i was pointing the
patch straight out the front of my windshield so the 60deg
beamwidth was probably working against it. there is no
comparison between the 2 for signal strength/SNR comparisons
when the patch is pointed correctly. also, you need to rotate
the patch for max gain...it can change the SNR by several
dB.

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06-02-2002 12:34
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

EYE CANDY

found some
very interesting stuff tonite. BW yr gonna blow yr wad when u
see these

Lucent Omni...(really a maxrad)...see page
13
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=37613&native_or_pdf=pdf
looks
kind of guerrilla.net's 2nd collinear design,
no?

Lucent Yagi. antenna innards are somewhere in the
middle of the doc. also tons of pics of the inside of the
ORiNOCO silver/gold card:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=37614&native_or_pdf=pdf
the
antenna looks a lot like one of the kool yagis i found on
seattlewireless.net (link is somewhere earlier in this
thread). maybe that's just a copycat?

Avaya PCCARD
(same as ORiNOCO)
http://users.skynet.be/chricat/Avaya.html
Buffalo
(ORiNOCO again)
http://users.skynet.be/chricat/WLI-PCM-L11-3.html
DLink
DWL-650
http://users.skynet.be/chricat/DWL-650.html
Linksys
PCMCIA NIC
http://simon.barber.net/linksys/default.htm
http://users.skynet.be/chricat/linksys.html
Linksys
USB NIC
http://www.kcip.com/wireless/wusb11.html

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06-03-2002 11:16
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blackwave
Do I look like I'm
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Registered: Apr
2002
Location: SoCal, OC
Posts: 1798

Re: EYE
CANDY

quote:

Originally posted by lincomatic
found some
very interesting stuff tonite. BW yr gonna blow yr wad when
u see these

You are a beautiful, beautiful man... (in
a manly type of way)... <tear forming at corner of eye for
emotional visualization>

Thank MS for MHT's!!!...

Thanks lincomatic! I have archived all these links and
added them to my encrypted 802.11b data "wherehouse".

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06-03-2002 11:41
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

Interesting PCB
Yagi

found another
interesting nugget from the FCC site. this is a small
PCB-based yagi from Lucent submitted 2/4/2002. the description
says "Directional Antenna from TELEX, model 2417N. Antenna
Gain 6.5dB w/ 30" cable."

https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=226894&native_or_pdf=pdf

check
out pages 12-14. very detailed photos. does anyone know how
this thing works? several of the elements don't even appear to
be connected to anything!

also, the internal pix of the
ORiNOCO PCMCIA NIC are much clearer than in the other links i
posted above.

here is a link from telex's site w/ an
antenna of similar part number:
http://www.telexwireless.com/2400mhzindoor.htm

BTW,
the following 2 antenna designs appear to be direct ripoffs of
the lucent yagi & omni in my prev post above:
http://seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/DirectionalYagi#line7
http://www.guerrilla.net/reference/antennas/2ghz_collinear_omni_lowpwr/

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lincomatic on 06-09-2002 at 08:20 PM

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06-04-2002 01:33
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

ok answer my
own question. read up some on yagi design and the director
elements are electromagnetically coupled so they don't have to
be connected together.

http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/D.Jefferies/yagiuda.html

here
is a yagi modeler if u want to design your own:
http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/yagipub/index.html

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06-04-2002 09:36
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sparafina
yatta!

Registered: May
2002
Location: AUS/LAX/DCA
Posts: 133

this site
from belgium has performance plots of a bunch of homemade
antenna designs found on the net.

http://reseaucitoyen.be/?HomeMade

check
out the ones by Christophe Cattelain, including a feedhorn
design using cardboard and tinfoil

very cool

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06-04-2002 10:36
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

quote:

Originally posted by sparafina
this site from
belgium has performance plots of a bunch of homemade antenna
designs found on the net.

http://reseaucitoyen.be/?HomeMade

check
out the ones by Christophe Cattelain, including a feedhorn
design using cardboard and tinfoil

very cool

that feedhorn is kool! missed that one
before.

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06-04-2002 10:42
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sparafina
yatta!

Registered: May
2002
Location: AUS/LAX/DCA
Posts: 133

Check out his
experiment with a waveguide made from cardboard, I gotta meet
this guy next time I'm in Liege.

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06-04-2002 10:58
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fungus
Moderator

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: So. Calif.
Posts: 76

Maxrad makes
a "wire" mobile antenna for an NMO mount. I bought a bunch of
these for use as a mg mount. They are not stong enough to use
them with a magnet. These could be good for use in building
your own antenna. I have them on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2028489457

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2029125750

I
have a few more if anyone wants them.

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06-05-2002 07:56
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fordem
Tropical
Stumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location:
Posts: 155

Gain
measurements

I've built a
couple of antennas - a little omni with a ground plane based
on the Fabcorp/Mobile Mark design using the pictures provided
by outcast_one - many thanks, a co-linear based on the
guerrilla.net design, and a cantenna.

Using NS, I can
see the increase in signal strength, relative to the internal
antenna, but I have no idea how to convert that into a gain
figure for my antenna.

Does anyone have a formula to do
this - or - can anyone give with/without signal strength
readings for an antenna of known gain.

For the hams out
there - is this the right way to do it?

Thanks
much

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06-05-2002 06:41
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

what kind of
snr/signal boost are you getting w/ the omni vs the built-in?
the one i tried to build sucked compared to my toothpick
antenna which started this thread.

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06-05-2002 10:17
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agentgrn
Net
Stumbler

Registered: May
2002
Location: Eastern MA
Posts: 51

quote:

Originally posted by fungus
I have a few more
if anyone wants them.

Looking at the specs for those antennas...it
looks like the VSWR is just a bit high at 1.5:1. Can any ham's
comment on this?

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06-05-2002 10:30
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fungus
Moderator

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: So. Calif.
Posts: 76

quote:

Originally posted by agentgrn

Looking at
the specs for those antennas...it looks like the VSWR is
just a bit high at 1.5:1. Can any ham's comment on this?

I'm a ham. 1.5:1 is very good.

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06-05-2002 10:35
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fordem
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Registered: Apr
2002
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Posts: 155

quote:

Originally posted by lincomatic
what kind of
snr/signal boost are you getting w/ the omni vs the
built-in? the one i tried to build sucked compared to my
toothpick antenna which started this thread.

Didn't look at snr, but I'm seeing a
signal strength increase to the tune of 10dBm - which I
suspect relates as much to the relative position of the
antenna as it does to the gain.

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06-06-2002 05:45
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sparafina
yatta!

Registered: May
2002
Location: AUS/LAX/DCA
Posts: 133

Homebrew Antenna:
Comtel patch

Here's the
Comtel patch, I posted a template earlier in this thread.
Similar constriction as the other, only difference is that I
used nylon screws (from Home Despot) to mount the patch above
the reflector.
sparafina has attached
this image:

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06-09-2002 06:18
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sparafina
yatta!

Registered: May
2002
Location: AUS/LAX/DCA
Posts: 133

Homebrew Antenna:
Bi-Quad Patch

Here's one
built using Trevor Marshalls design. Performance seems to be
similar to the Comtel patch.
sparafina has attached
this image:

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06-09-2002 06:21
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sparafina
yatta!

Registered: May
2002
Location: AUS/LAX/DCA
Posts: 133

Homebrew Antenna: 1/4
wave toothpick

Here's
another 1/4 wave toothpick. Length is 1.2 inches, used
heatshrink tubing to make it look like antenna instead of
something that might be dangerous to take on a plane. Mounted
on a yogurt cup, magnet inside for mounting on car. Car acts
as groundplane.
sparafina has attached
this image:

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06-09-2002 06:26
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sparafina
yatta!

Registered: May
2002
Location: AUS/LAX/DCA
Posts: 133

Homebrew Antenna: Omni
Collinear

Finally got
some time to build this one based on the plans from g.net.
This works pretty well, but I don't quite understand the
design, just followed the plans. I looked for a similar
designs, but I couldn't find any.

I didn't build the
first design, because I didn't have any LMR and there were
some mistakes in their calculations, such as using the wrong
value for the speed of light. However, there are many more
references to work from, so I'll give this a try using
thinnet.

The metal bracket is a window mount I built
out of some tin flashing. The mount works pretty well,but it
flexes too much to attach a flag for camoflage. Another weird
thing I noticed is that the antenna displays some
directionality, probably because of its mounted on the
side.
sparafina has attached this image:

Last edited by
sparafina on 06-09-2002 at 06:47 PM

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06-09-2002 06:40
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lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

sparafina,
wow that's a lot of antennae you built.
thanks for posting the photos. very cool.

1) that heatshrink tubing idea is great. i've
been having trouble coming up w/ a workable way to blunt the
sharp tip of my whip.
what kind of magnet are you using?
seems like w/ that tall cup profile that the thing would have
a decent amount of aerodynamic drag.

2) i noticed you
left the outer lips off the trevor marshall design. that will
prob lower the gain.

3) the collinear design has a kind
of squashed donut pattern when you put it vertical, so it
definitely isn't omni when you mount it horizontally. but i'm
having trouble picturing how it attaches to your mount
horizontally...from the design it looks like it would mount
vertically instead.

4) how much diff in
signal/noise/snr do you get between the toothpick & g.net
antennae? i'm still trying to decide if it's worth the trouble
building one of those fancy ones. part of my reluctance is
also because i can't figure out how they came up w/ the
dimensions for that thing. if you get a chance would u mind
doing some controlled studies of the antennae vs your card's
built-in?

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06-09-2002 08:35
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sparafina
yatta!

Registered: May
2002
Location: AUS/LAX/DCA
Posts: 133

quote:

Originally posted by lincomatic

sparafina,
wow that's a lot of antennae you
built. thanks for posting the photos. very cool.

1) that heatshrink tubing idea is great.
i've been having trouble coming up w/ a workable way to
blunt the sharp tip of my whip.
what kind of magnet are
you using? seems like w/ that tall cup profile that the
thing would have a decent amount of aerodynamic
drag.

2) i noticed you left the outer lips off the
trevor marshall design. that will prob lower the
gain.

3) the collinear design has a kind of squashed
donut pattern when you put it vertical, so it definitely
isn't omni when you mount it horizontally. but i'm having
trouble picturing how it attaches to your mount
horizontally...from the design it looks like it would mount
vertically instead.

4) how much diff in
signal/noise/snr do you get between the toothpick &
g.net antennae? i'm still trying to decide if it's worth the
trouble building one of those fancy ones. part of my
reluctance is also because i can't figure out how they came
up w/ the dimensions for that thing. if you get a chance
would u mind doing some controlled studies of the antennae
vs your card's built-in?

1. I started with with a speaker magnet,
but it wasn't strong enough. I found "pot magnets" (for
holding pot lids against a cabinet door) at home despot that
are much stronger.

2. Yeah, the biquad was so easy to
build that I didn't worry about the lips. I initially tried it
on my access point and it works OK inside the house, but the
signal was weak in the backyard. I want to try the comtel for
this, but I haven't tested it yet.

3. the picture shows
the mount perpendicular to the antenna, the antenna is mounted
on the bottom using the hose clamp and the mount hangs on the
edge of the front window (like those car flag mounts). I run
the cable from the back window and crack so it doesn't crimp
the cable..

4. Ughh, if I only had the time to do this
properly.

Here's the qualitative assessment. I
finished the omni yesterday (it took an evening to build and a
couple of hours to build the radome) and took it for a quick
drive over an area I know pretty well and drove a month ago. I
picked up an extra 30 AP's that I hadn't picked up before. I
am picking up my own AP about 150 ft further than with the
toothpick.

When I get the time to set up a proper test
in an open field, I'll post the results.

The collinears
are relatively easy to build and brass tubing is inexpensive
from large craft stores (the antenna cost >$10 for the
brass tubing and around $10 for the radome). Building it was a
nice break from computer stuff .

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06-09-2002 09:14
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sparafina
yatta!

Registered: May
2002
Location: AUS/LAX/DCA
Posts: 133

quote:

Originally posted by lincomatic

3) the
collinear design has a kind of squashed donut pattern when
you put it vertical, so it definitely isn't omni when you
mount it horizontally. but i'm having trouble picturing how
it attaches to your mount horizontally...from the design it
looks like it would mount vertically instead.

I think I meant to say that I mounted on
the window, on the side of car, like a flag.

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06-09-2002 09:18
PM

sparafina
yatta!

Registered: May
2002
Location: AUS/LAX/DCA
Posts: 133

Ahh, I knew I
had seen the collinear design before, its a Maxrad design.

Here's the pic from the FCC database, its got
measurements, sort of. Please see page 13 of this
document:

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=37613&native_or_pdf=pdf

Last edited by
sparafina on 06-10-2002 at 11:02 AM

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06-09-2002 09:32
PM

lincomatic
UberNetbumbler

Registered: Apr
2002
Location: Tanimbar Islands
Posts: 687

sparafina,
thanks for answering my long list of
questions. your antennae really rock. from your qualitative assessments, sounds like that
collinear is definitely worth building.

btw, i asserted
it was the same as the lucent/maxrad antenna in my prev
post:

BTW, the following 2 antenna designs appear to
be direct ripoffs of the lucent yagi & omni in my prev
post above:
http://seattlewireless.net/index.cg...ionalYagi#line7
http://www.guerrilla.net/reference/...ar_omni_lowpwr/

but
i was too chicken to post the (possibly) copyrighted
photo...
glad u agree. did u find a maxrad record & the
FCC, or is it from the lucent one? just wondering every
antenna has an FCC ID of its own too.

do u think that
lucent/telex yagi i posted last week is worth building? looks
pretty easy to etch out of a blank PCB.

__________________
~lincomatic

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06-09-2002 10:19
PM

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