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Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:53:54 -0700
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost18864></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>IL GIACO</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1>Mini=20
                  Stumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
                  =
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                  border=3D0>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: May=20
                  2002<BR>Location: <BR>Posts: 11</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B></B></FONT>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by gcrocker </I><BR><B>Not that =

                    appropriate for stumbling (it's 20" high and PVC), =
but I may=20
                    mount it on my crappy van for just that =
purpose:<BR><BR><A=20
                    =
href=3D"http://www.guerrilla.net/reference/antennas/2ghz_collinear_omni_l=
owpwr/"=20
                    =
target=3D_blank>http://www.guerrilla.net/reference/antennas/2ghz_collinea=
r_omni_lowpwr/</A><BR><BR>First=20
                    one I built took 3-4 hours, and I think I can do =
them in an=20
                    hour now.<BR><BR>-glenn </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>I've build many of them and I =
can=20
                  made it in about 30 mins <IMG alt=3D""=20
                  =
src=3D"http://forums.netstumbler.com/images/smilies/smile.gif"=20
                  border=3D0><BR>However I've also build one with 5 =
elements=20
                  instead 4 (usings the same measures) and It work very=20
                  good.<BR>For example with airtools from the same =
distance from=20
                  a AP the 4 elements antenna give me 10 of quality, =
with the 5=20
                  elements I can reach 17-18 of quality.<BR>I would like =
to know=20
                  what a 6 elements could do.<BR>PS: I've used rg174, =
it's the=20
                  only cable that I can find here.</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>Se puo' essere ferito, =
puo'=20
                  essere ucciso!</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
                  <P></P>
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                  border=3D0> 07-09-2002 <FONT color=3D#666686>03:06=20
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost18867></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>fordem</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1>Tropical=20
                  Stumbler</FONT><BR>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: <BR>Posts: 186</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B></B></FONT>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by lincomatic </I><BR><B>i =
wonder if=20
                    it's ok the way i did the feed connections instead =
of using=20
                    rigid coax. performance seems ok but i don't know =
what my=20
                    setup does to VSWR... </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I don't have access to the rigid =
coax=20
                  either, but after seeing the Trevor Marshall site =
which showed=20
                  one version built directly on the back of an N =
connector, I=20
                  decided to go ahead with it.<BR><BR>I just need to get =
a round=20
                  tuit - as soon as I find one of those <IMG alt=3D""=20
                  =
src=3D"http://forums.netstumbler.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif"=20
                  border=3D0> <BR><BR>I also got a friend with one of =
them little=20
                  DBS dishes that she's not using, so maybe I'll even =
try it=20
                  with that.</FONT>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost18934></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>sparafina</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>yatta!</FONT><BR><IMG=20
                  alt=3D""=20
                  =
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                  border=3D0>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: May=20
                  2002<BR>Location: AUS/LAX/DCA<BR>Posts: =
168</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Re: =
success!</B></FONT>=20

                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>[QUOTE]<I>Originally posted by lincomatic=20
                  </I><BR>[B]ok, where best to get the answer than from =
the=20
                  horse's mouth. i fired off an e-mail to trevor, and he =
gave me=20
                  the answer quickly. my driven element &amp; feed were =
all=20
                  wrong. in the pic above, i have the thing shorted =
together at=20
                  the middle and only 1 wire connecting. it's supposed =
to be=20
                  open at the middle w/ 1 side connected to the signal =
and one=20
                  to ground. works great now...about 3dB better than my =
comtelco=20
                  patch clone when both are rotated for best match of=20
                  polarization.[QUOTE]<BR><BR>Nice job! I also got it =
wrong, I=20
                  only connected the driven element. I also used a piece =
of=20
                  stiff thinnet, which is a bit floppy and a pain to =
work with=20
                  at 15 mm. I need to redo the driven element with just=20
                  wire.</FONT></P>
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                      <TD><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost18956></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Re: Re:=20
                  success!</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by sparafina </I><BR>Nice job! =
I also=20
                    got it wrong, I only connected the driven element. I =
also=20
                    used a piece of stiff thinnet, which is a bit floppy =
and a=20
                    pain to work with at 15 mm. I need to redo the =
driven=20
                    element with just wire. [/B]
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>it'll make a dramatic diff in the =

                  performance when u hook it up the right =
way.<BR><BR>btw, i=20
                  asked trevor about the double 8 design:<BR><A=20
                  href=3D"http://patraswireless.00sf.com/antennas.html"=20
                  =
target=3D_blank>http://patraswireless.00sf.com/antennas.html</A><BR>and=20
                  he claims that 2 loops gives best performance.</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost18957></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>fordem</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1>Tropical=20
                  Stumbler</FONT><BR>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: <BR>Posts: 186</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Re: Re: Re: =

                  success!</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by lincomatic </I><BR><B>btw, i =
asked=20
                    trevor about the double 8 design:<BR><A=20
                    =
href=3D"http://patraswireless.00sf.com/antennas.html"=20
                    =
target=3D_blank>http://patraswireless.00sf.com/antennas.html</A><BR>and=20
                    he claims that 2 loops gives best performance. </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>How are you counting loops? I'm =
thinking=20
                  that 2 loops would be a bi-quad.</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost18958></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>sparafina</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>yatta!</FONT><BR><IMG=20
                  alt=3D""=20
                  =
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                  border=3D0>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: May=20
                  2002<BR>Location: AUS/LAX/DCA<BR>Posts: =
168</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Re: Re: Re: =

                  success!</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by lincomatic </I><BR><B>he =
claims that=20
                    2 loops gives best performance. </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I've also seen another design =
with all=20
                  the loops stacked in parallel, I'll post the url when =
I find=20
                  it again. It was based on a ham radio antenna design =
scaled to=20
                  2.4 gHz</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P></P>
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                      <TD><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost18965></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
                  =
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=3D1027109549"=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Re: Re: Re: =
Re:=20
                  success!</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by fordem =
</I><BR><B><BR><BR>How are=20
                    you counting loops? I'm thinking that 2 loops would =
be a=20
                    bi-quad. </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>yes, i'm calling a biquad 2 =
loops. trevor=20
                  told me that the biquad is optimal...adding more loops =
doesn't=20
                  enhance performance. so where do these double 8 =
designs come=20
                  from?</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost18974></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>fordem</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1>Tropical=20
                  Stumbler</FONT><BR>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: <BR>Posts: 186</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Re: Re: Re: =
Re: Re:=20
                  success!</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by lincomatic </I><BR><B>so =
where do=20
                    these double 8 designs come from? </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I wondered about that myself - I =
spent=20
                  some time researching quad, bi-quad and the good old =
cubical=20
                  quad and doodling on a scrap of paper and theory says =
the=20
                  voltage at the center point of a double 8 will be =
pretty much=20
                  zero at the resonant frequency. <BR><BR>It's possible =
that a 6=20
                  loop version might work reasonably well, but so far =
that's=20
                  only on paper.<BR><BR>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by sparafina</I><BR><B>I've =
also seen=20
                    another design with all the loops stacked in =
parallel, I'll=20
                    post the url when I find it again. It was based on a =
ham=20
                    radio antenna design scaled to 2.4 gHz</B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><A=20
                  href=3D"http://members.iinet.net.au/~stygen/Quad.html" =

                  target=3D_blank>Is this it?</A><BR><BR>The Frars guys =
had a very=20
                  brief snippet of information on their webpage about a=20
                  quad-bi-quad and had promised a writeup that never=20
                  materialised.<BR><BR>What I had envisioned was four =
bi-quads=20
                  mounted in a single plane equidistant from one long=20
                  rectangular reflector.</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost18984></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B></B></FONT>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>seattlewireless has posted a new version of =
the coffee=20
                  can waveguide calculator:<BR><BR><A=20
                  =
href=3D"http://seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/DirectionalWaveguide"=20
                  =
target=3D_blank>http://seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/DirectionalWaveguide=
</A></FONT></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost18985></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>sparafina</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>yatta!</FONT><BR><IMG=20
                  alt=3D""=20
                  =
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                  border=3D0>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: May=20
                  2002<BR>Location: AUS/LAX/DCA<BR>Posts: =
168</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B></B></FONT>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by lincomatic=20
                    </I><BR><B>seattlewireless has posted a new version =
of the=20
                    coffee can waveguide calculator:<BR><BR><A=20
                    =
href=3D"http://seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/DirectionalWaveguide"=20
                    =
target=3D_blank>http://seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/DirectionalWaveguide=
</A>=20
                    </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>The calculations seem to have =
changed=20
                  with respect to waveguide length, am I =
wrong?<BR><BR>They also=20
                  have links to Christoph Cattelain's antenna site below =
the=20
                  calculator. Ill try and visit him in September when =
I'm Liege.=20
                  I'm particularly interested in his slotted waveguide=20
                  experiments.</FONT>
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                  name=3Dpost19034></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
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                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B></B></FONT>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by sparafina </I><BR><B><BR>The =

                    calculations seem to have changed with respect to =
waveguide=20
                    length, am I wrong?<BR></B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>if you put in channel 6, the =
numbers are=20
                  very similar to greg rehm's calcs (at least for =
3.25"). i=20
                  looked into greg's calculator and he's using channel 6 =
(2437)=20
                  as the reference freq.</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1><I>Last edited by=20
                  lincomatic on 07-10-2002 at 09:33 AM</I></FONT></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost19057></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
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                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B></B></FONT>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" =
size=3D2>as a=20
                  crosscheck, i decided to re-implement the cantenna =
calculator=20
                  based on formulae from the ARRL antenna book.<BR>in =
case=20
                  anyone is interested, i've uploaded C++ source and =
Win32 EXE=20
                  at:<BR><BR><A=20
                  =
href=3D"http://www.geocities.com/lincomatic/software.html#cantenna"=20
                  =
target=3D_blank>http://www.geocities.com/lincomatic/software.html#cantenn=
a</A><BR><BR>seems=20
                  like the seattlewireless calculator is a little bit =
off. my=20
                  calcs are almost exactly identical to greg rehm's =
calculator=20
                  when you plug in channel 6.<BR><BR>found some =
interesting=20
                  stuff in running my program. w/ a 3.25" (82.55mm) dia=20
                  waveguide optimal probe position varies by a whopping =
5.5mm=20
                  between channels 1-11! but with a 92mm dia guide, the =
diff is=20
                  down to 2.63mm. can't go much higher than 92mm because =
the=20
                  TM01 cutoff starts to get too low to do channel =
11.<BR><BR>btw=20
                  the ARRL book recommends 2-3 guide wavelength for the=20
                  waveguide length, so the 3/4 guide wavelength value =
should be=20
                  treated as a minimum.</FONT></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost19159></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><IMG =
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                  =
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                  border=3D0> <B>cantenna finally beats the =
biquad</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" =
size=3D2>i've been=20
                  trying to hook up my brother who is a professor at a =
local=20
                  college into the campus wireless network. he lives in =
college=20
                  housing just down the hill from the campus. the IT =
department=20
                  has several antennas pointed at college buildings off =
campus,=20
                  but unfortunately, my brother's house is around the =
corner=20
                  from them. they were supposed to install another AP =
near my=20
                  brother's house, but haven't gotten around to it after =
a year=20
                  of waiting, so i've been trying to figure out how to =
get a=20
                  signal to him.<BR><BR>a couple of nites ago climbed up =
on his=20
                  roof and pointed my biquad at a yagi (which was =
pointed away=20
                  from me) a few hundred feet away which was behind a =
tree and=20
                  amazingly still got a 5dB SNR...marginal at best =
especially=20
                  because the tree may grow yet more foliage. <BR><BR>i =
built=20
                  another cantenna tonite using 3 3.25" cans...makes the =
length=20
                  about 1.75 waveguide wavelengths. the driven element =
is=20
                  30.75mm long and mounted the 64mm from the back of the =
can.=20
                  the conical collector is 7.25" in diameter on the big =
side, w/=20
                  a 30degree flare. this is just a quick prototype so i =
made the=20
                  collector out of 2 coat-hanger circles, separated w/ =
four 4"=20
                  long coat hanger supports covered in aluminum foil. =
the final=20
                  design will need to be more durable to stand up =
against wind=20
                  &amp; hail. here are the SNR's i got across the street =
from my=20
                  AP.<BR><BR>orinoco built in: 26<BR>2 cans w/o =
collector:=20
                  36<BR>trevor marshall biquad: 39<BR>3cans w/ =
collector: 43=20
                  (!)<BR><BR>this is the highest gain antenna i've built =
yet. i=20
                  hope it's good enough to get a clean signal at my =
bro's house.=20
                  can't wait to try it out.<BR><BR>dragged my jornada =
off a=20
                  table while connected to this %$* thing and it fell on =
the=20
                  floor. lucky the card &amp; jornada are ok, but i =
broke off=20
                  the end of my pigtail <IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
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                  lincomatic on 07-11-2002 at 08:52 AM</I></FONT></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost19161></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>ew123</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1>Mini=20
                  Stumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: <BR>Posts: 8</FONT></P></TD>
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                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B></B></FONT>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" =
size=3D2>Hello=20
                  Lincomatic,<BR><BR>your new cantenna is surely =
impressive and=20
                  very usefull for sniffing with kismet but for the =
purpose of=20
                  connecting your brother to the campus it might be not=20
                  ideal.<BR><BR>The horn collects more energy and =
improves=20
                  reception for this antenna. However when used for =
sending, the=20
                  horn spreads the TX-signal over a larger area thus =
decreasing=20
                  the received power at the other end.<BR><BR>So you =
will=20
                  improve reception of the campus signals while =
simultaneously=20
                  decreasing reception of your brothers signal at the=20
                  campus.<BR><BR>Such an antenna is only usable for two =
way=20
                  communication when used on both ends. Then you have =
the=20
                  gain-gain (or how would you call improved gain? ;-) =
for=20
                  receiving as well as for transmitting.</FONT></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost19177></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
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                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B></B></FONT>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by ew123 </I><BR><B><BR>The =
horn=20
                    collects more energy and improves reception for this =

                    antenna. However when used for sending, the horn =
spreads the=20
                    TX-signal over a larger area thus decreasing the =
received=20
                    power at the other end.<BR></B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>thanks for the info. =
<B>bmoore314</B>=20
                  made the same observation with his wire mesh =
collector, but i=20
                  was hoping that by keeping mine smaller (his has a 11" =

                  aperture and mine is 7.25")<BR>that my Tx power would =
stay=20
                  high enough.<BR><BR>in case it doesn't work, what kind =
of=20
                  antenna would you recommend? i can't find any decent =
designs=20
                  w/ enough gain ... may resort to buying a parabolic =
grid=20
                  antenna if all else fails.</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

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                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
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                  =
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                  border=3D0> <B>It works!</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" =
size=3D2>just got back=20
                  from my bro's. from the same place i got the 5dB SNR =
using the=20
                  biquad, i got 8dB w/ the 3-can &amp; cone cantenna. i =
fired up=20
                  pocketIE and was able to get into hotmail with it and =
surf a=20
                  little. by moving to a different spot on the roof that =
wasn't=20
                  blocked by the tree, i got a 12dB SNR. i'm still =
amazed=20
                  because i'm pointing it at the Lucent yagi from about =
a 30-45=20
                  degree angle from the rear....didn't realize they =
radiated=20
                  that strongly to the rear.<BR><BR>my question is do i =
have=20
                  enough signal margin to operate this thing reliably? =
what's a=20
                  good minimum SNR for reliable communications? i don't =
want to=20
                  drop the connection every time the atmospheric =
conditions=20
                  change.</FONT></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1><I>Last edited by=20
                  lincomatic on 07-11-2002 at 02:59 PM</I></FONT></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost19200></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
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                  size=3D2><B>Thorn</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1>DooMed=20
                  Stumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: T=EDr na n=D3g<BR>Posts: =
384</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1><B>Kewl.</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>lincomatic<BR><BR>12dB should be good. Just =
for grins=20
                  though, what are the actual figures for the noise =
level,=20
                  signal, SNR?</FONT></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>Thorn</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost19208></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Re: =
Kewl.</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by Thorn=20
                    </I><BR><B>lincomatic<BR><BR>12dB should be good. =
Just for=20
                    grins though, what are the actual figures for the =
noise=20
                    level, signal, SNR? </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>thorn,<BR>12dB was the most =
stable SNR=20
                  reading i got...the antenna pretty directional (though =
less so=20
                  than the bare cans)...hard to keep it steady holding =
the=20
                  bazooka &amp; jornada in 1 hand and the stylus in the =
other=20
                  whilst balancing on a pitched roof! looking back into =
my MS=20
                  log, here are the peak values it =
recorded:<BR><BR>Signal+:=20
                  -85<BR>Noise-: -103<BR>SNR+: 14<BR><BR>i'm also trying =
to=20
                  allow for signal loss in the cabling &amp; connectors =
to the=20
                  eventual location inside the house. how low do you =
think it=20
                  can let the SNR go at the connection to orinoco card =
in the=20
                  house and keep a stable connection? the AP is also an =
Agere=20
                  unit.</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost19211></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>Thorn</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1>DooMed=20
                  Stumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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1025455357"=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: T=EDr na n=D3g<BR>Posts: =
384</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B></B></FONT>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" =
size=3D2>You'll=20
                  probably loose 2-4dB from line losses, depending on =
size,=20
                  length, number of connectors, etc. But from the sounds =
of it,=20
                  you should be OK. Some people report running 7-8dB and =
still=20
                  making a good connection. I think the commercial WISPs =
like=20
                  about 10 as a minimum.<BR><BR>Sounds like =
fun.</FONT></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>Thorn</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost19222></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>rogerRabbit</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1>Mini=20
                  Stumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Jun=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Motueka<BR>Posts: 19</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Re: =
cantenna finally=20
                  beats the biquad</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by lincomatic =
</I><BR><B><BR>orinoco=20
                    built in: 26<BR>2 cans w/o collector: 36<BR>trevor =
marshall=20
                    biquad: 39<BR>3cans w/ collector: 43 (!)<BR></B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nice looking puppy!<BR><BR>Out of =
curiousity,=20
                  do you have a figure for 3 cans w/o collector?</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost19226></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
                  =
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=3D1027109549"=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
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                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B></B></FONT>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by Thorn </I><BR><B>You'll =
probably=20
                    loose 2-4dB from line losses, depending on size, =
length,=20
                    number of connectors, etc. But from the sounds of =
it, you=20
                    should be OK. Some people report running 7-8dB and =
still=20
                    making a good connection. I think the commercial =
WISPs like=20
                    about 10 as a minimum.<BR><BR>Sounds like fun. </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>thanks thorn. i was going to use =
10dB as=20
                  a baseline minimum, but due to the configuration of =
his house,=20
                  i might need a long cable run. also i wanted to factor =
in=20
                  stuff like the antenna getting knocked out of optimal=20
                  alignment during a rainstorm...don't want to get stuck =

                  tweaking the thing every week.<BR><BR>i'm trying to =
keep the=20
                  budget down, but it's not looking pretty. i may end up =
having=20
                  to set up a repeater configuration to get the signal =
to the=20
                  target computer. anyway after it's all set up i'll =
post a=20
                  summary of the setup.</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost19227></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
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                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Re: Re: =
cantenna=20
                  finally beats the biquad</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by rogerRabbit =
</I><BR><B><BR>Nice=20
                    looking puppy!<BR><BR>Out of curiousity, do you have =
a=20
                    figure for 3 cans w/o collector? </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>i think the SNR was about 37-38 =
dB</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
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                  name=3Dpost19231></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
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                  size=3D2><B>sparafina</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>yatta!</FONT><BR><IMG=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
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                  2002<BR>Location: AUS/LAX/DCA<BR>Posts: =
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>lincomatic,<BR><BR>have you recently looked =
at=20
                  Christoff Catelain's horn site, he's posted a =
calculator.=20
                  Might be an alternative to the bazooka =
cantenna.<BR><BR>Here's=20
                  the google translated url from seattle =
wireless:<BR><BR><A=20
                  =
href=3D"http://216.239.37.120/translate_c?hl=3Den&amp;ie=3DUTF-8&amp;oe=3D=
UTF-8&amp;langpair=3Dfr%7Cen&amp;u=3Dhttp://seattlewireless.net/index.cgi=
/CardboardHorn&amp;prev=3D/language_tools"=20
                  =
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amp;oe=3DUTF-8&amp;langpair=3Dfr%7Cen&amp;u=3Dhttp://seattlewireless.net/=
index.cgi/CardboardHorn&amp;prev=3D/language_tools</A></FONT></P>
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                  name=3Dpost19233></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
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                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by sparafina=20
                    </I><BR><B>lincomatic,<BR><BR>have you recently =
looked at=20
                    Christoff Catelain's horn site, he's posted a =
calculator.=20
                    Might be an alternative to the bazooka=20
                    cantenna.<BR><BR>Here's the google translated url =
from=20
                    seattle wireless:<BR><BR><A=20
                    =
href=3D"http://216.239.37.120/translate_c?hl=3Den&amp;ie=3DUTF-8&amp;oe=3D=
UTF-8&amp;langpair=3Dfr%7Cen&amp;u=3Dhttp://seattlewireless.net/index.cgi=
/CardboardHorn&amp;prev=3D/language_tools"=20
                    =
target=3D_blank>http://216.239.37.120/translate_c?hl=3Den&amp;ie=3DUTF-8&=
amp;oe=3DUTF-8&amp;langpair=3Dfr%7Cen&amp;u=3Dhttp://seattlewireless.net/=
index.cgi/CardboardHorn&amp;prev=3D/language_tools</A>=20
                    </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>yeah i saw that stuff. pretty =
cool but=20
                  the cardboard's not going to hold up too well on my =
bro's=20
                  roof.<BR><BR>didn't see the calculator though, thanks =
for the=20
                  tip! </FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1><I>Last edited by=20
                  lincomatic on 07-11-2002 at 03:59 PM</I></FONT></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost19236></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>sparafina</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>yatta!</FONT><BR><IMG=20
                  alt=3D""=20
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                  border=3D0>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: May=20
                  2002<BR>Location: AUS/LAX/DCA<BR>Posts: =
168</FONT></P></TD>
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                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by lincomatic =
</I><BR><B><BR><BR>yeah i=20
                    saw that stuff. pretty cool but the cardboard's not =
going to=20
                    hold up too well on my bro's roof.<BR><BR>didn't see =
the=20
                    calculator though, thanks for the tip! </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I think the cardboard is just for =

                  prototyping, I expect that you would need to get tin =
sheeting=20
                  for a operational antenna.</FONT>
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                  size=3D2><B>Thunderforge</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1>Net=20
                  Stumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Jun=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Florida<BR>Posts: 87</FONT></P></TD>
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                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><IMG =
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                  =
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                  border=3D0> <B>Re: Re: Kewl.</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by lincomatic =
</I><BR><B><BR>Signal+:=20
                    -85<BR>Noise-: -103<BR>SNR+: 14<BR></B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Ok, since it's listed here I'll =
ask. I'm=20
                  sure it's a standard RF thing but, why is the signal =
number a=20
                  negative number and in what instances would I get a =
positive=20
                  number (like I did at work today.)</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>Back to the=20
                  forge,<BR>TF</FONT></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost19238></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
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                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
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                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B></B></FONT>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>i =
don't have=20
                  any big pieces of sheet metal laying around and it =
looks like=20
                  a lot of work to assemble one. maybe someone else can =
be the=20
                  guinea pig to try it out first (hint hint) <IMG =
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                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
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                  name=3Dpost19239></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
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                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Re: Re: Re: =

                  Kewl.</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by Thunderforge =
</I><BR><B><BR><BR>Ok,=20
                    since it's listed here I'll ask. I'm sure it's a =
standard RF=20
                    thing but, why is the signal number a negative =
number and in=20
                    what instances would I get a positive number (like I =
did at=20
                    work today.) </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>dBs are based on the log =
function. so if=20
                  you plug in 1 you get zero. fractions result in =
negative=20
                  numbers. positive #'s are when the get above the =
reference=20
                  level of 1 (could be 1W, 1 mW, etc.) in the signal =
power.=20
                  (sorry i'm a bit rusty on the exact formulae and don't =
have=20
                  any of my EE textbooks handy at the moment, so i can't =
give u=20
                  the exact equations...you must have had a pretty =
powerful=20
                  signal to get positive...i've never seen =
that.<BR><BR>i think=20
                  power in dB is 10log10(power in watts) and dB for =
voltages is=20
                  20log10(voltage)...someone correct me if i'm =
wrong...</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1><I>Last edited by=20
                  lincomatic on 07-11-2002 at 04:21 PM</I></FONT></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost19263></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
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                  size=3D2><B>Haveck</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1>Mini=20
                  Stumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Jul=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Penn State<BR>Posts: =
10</FONT></P></TD>
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                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" =
size=3D2>that's=20
                  right<BR><BR>dB is an expression of =
gain<BR><BR>voltage and=20
                  current gain in decibels are 20*log10(abs(current or =
voltage=20
                  gain in v/v or i/i))<BR><BR>this is usful because a =
negative=20
                  voltage gain in v/v doesn't necessarily mean the =
signal is=20
                  lossy - just out of phase, but a negative voltage gain =
in=20
                  decibels does mean the signal is =
attenuating<BR><BR>log(1)=3D0,=20
                  so the gain v/v must be greater than 1 to get a =
possitive dB.=20
                  this means you must receive a stronger signal than was =

                  transmitted, i believe - which could be done with an =
amp, but=20
                  is unlikely otherwise<BR><BR>also, power gaim in =
decibels is=20
                  10log(power gain)</FONT></P>
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                  name=3Dpost19271></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
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                  size=3D2><B>Thunderforge</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1>Net=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Jun=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Florida<BR>Posts: 87</FONT></P></TD>
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                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B></B></FONT>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" =
size=3D2>Thanks, that=20
                  cleared it up for me.</FONT></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>Back to the=20
                  forge,<BR>TF</FONT></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost19367></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>mshimek</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1>Ohio Net=20
                  Fumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Near Cleveland, Ohio<BR>Posts:=20
                26</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1><B>Decibels</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" =
size=3D2>Or, db as we=20
                  all know is a REFERENCE value only. You have to =
reference it=20
                  to a known value such as watts, milliwatts or volts,=20
                  millivolts and microvolts. Now with that in=20
                  mind:<BR><BR>Transmitters, such as those used in =
commercial=20
                  microwave transmitters are referenced to 1 milliwatt,=20
                  therefore a transmitter of 1 watt would be a +30 dbm=20
                  transmitter, a 1/2 watt transmitter would be +27 dbm =
or a 0=20
                  dbm transmitter would be 1 milliwatt.<BR><BR>0 dbm=3D =
1=20
                  milliwatt<BR>10 dbm=3D 10 milliwatts <BR>20 dbm=3D 100 =

                  milliwatts<BR>30 dbm=3D 1000 milliwats or 1 =
watt<BR><BR>Received=20
                  signal strength reads negative numbers because of the =
free=20
                  space and path loss of the signal. The noise floor is =
the=20
                  signal strength of the background noise, which is =
caused by=20
                  man made devices and nature, such as the sun. Your =
signal to=20
                  noise ratio (SNR+) is how high your signal is above =
that noise=20
                  floor. So if your noise floor is -92 and your signal =
is -82,=20
                  they your SNR+ is 10.<BR><BR>Here are some typical =
specs on a=20
                  6.7 Ghz microwave path on a system I =
maintain:<BR><BR>Path=20
                  Length: 14.81 miles<BR>Free Space Loss: 136.53=20
                  db<BR>Transmission Line Loss: 3.54 db<BR>Jumper loss: =
.2=20
                  db<BR>Antenna Radome Loss: .5 db<BR><BR>Antenna Size: =
8 ft=20
                  Dish<BR>Antenna Gain: 42.3 db<BR>Transmitter Power: =
21.2=20
                  dbm<BR>Total Gains 105.8 db<BR><BR>Unfaded RX level: =
-38.5 dbm=20
                  (+/- 2 db)<BR>Required Level for 10-3 BER: -77 =
dbm<BR>Flat=20
                  Fade Margin: 38.5 db<BR>Percent Reliability:=20
                  99.99961%</FONT></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost19496></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>fordem</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1>Tropical=20
                  Stumbler</FONT><BR>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: <BR>Posts: 186</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Bowtie=20
                  Antennas?</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" =
size=3D2>Anyone got=20
                  dimensional data on this type of stuff? Looks like it =
would be=20
                  fairly easy to construct.<BR><BR><A=20
                  =
href=3D"http://www.qsl.net/vk1tkr/Broadband_Source/Broadband_Antenna_1.jp=
g"=20
                  target=3D_blank>Bowtie #1</A> <BR><BR>Here's another =
link - to=20
                  the write up <A=20
                  =
href=3D"http://engnet.anu.edu.au/DEpeople/Mick.Stuckings/wireless/"=20
                  target=3D_blank>Webgear Aviator mods</A> and the <A=20
                  =
href=3D"http://engnet.anu.edu.au/DEpeople/Mick.Stuckings/wireless/bowtiep=
ictures.html"=20
                  target=3D_blank>pics</A></FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost19499></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Re: Bowtie=20
                  Antennas?</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by fordem </I><BR><B>Anyone got =

                    dimensional data on this type of stuff? Looks like =
it would=20
                    be fairly easy to construct.<BR><BR><A=20
                    =
href=3D"http://www.qsl.net/vk1tkr/Broadband_Source/Broadband_Antenna_1.jp=
g"=20
                    target=3D_blank>Bowtie #1</A> <BR><BR>Here's another =
link - to=20
                    the write up <A=20
                    =
href=3D"http://engnet.anu.edu.au/DEpeople/Mick.Stuckings/wireless/"=20
                    target=3D_blank>Webgear Aviator mods</A> and the <A=20
                    =
href=3D"http://engnet.anu.edu.au/DEpeople/Mick.Stuckings/wireless/bowtiep=
ictures.html"=20
                    target=3D_blank>pics</A> </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>interesting stuff. only link i =
could find=20
                  via google was this one:<BR><BR><A=20
                  =
href=3D"http://www.qsl.net/vk1tkr/Pacific_Monolithics/Pacific_Monolithics=
.htm"=20
                  =
target=3D_blank>http://www.qsl.net/vk1tkr/Pacific_Monolithics/Pacific_Mon=
olithics.htm</A><BR><BR>which=20
                  is probably where u got your link from, right? maybe u =
could=20
                  send vk1tkr an email asking him for details?</FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost19537></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Cheap =
Cables, Antenna=20
                  Links</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" =
size=3D2>in case=20
                  anyone is interested, found a goldmine of hardware =
links<BR>on=20
                  seattlewireless.net:<BR><BR><A=20
                  =
href=3D"http://www.seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/WirelessHardwareLinks#li=
ne28"=20
                  =
target=3D_blank>http://www.seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/WirelessHardware=
Links#line28</A><BR><BR>they=20
                  also list a cheep source of cabling:<BR><BR><A=20
                  href=3D"http://www.allcompc.com/index.htm"=20
                  =
target=3D_blank>http://www.allcompc.com/index.htm</A><BR><BR>examples:<BR=
><BR>orinoco=20
                  24" pigtail: $11.67<BR>6ft LMR400 w/ N-f+m:=20
                  $15.70<BR><BR>don't see any shopping cart on their=20
                  page...guess one needs to call it in.</FONT></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost19542></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
                  =
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>circular =
biquad &amp;=20
                  dish</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" =
size=3D2>here is an=20
                  interesting biquad &amp; dish design:<BR><BR><A=20
                  href=3D"http://www.qsl.net/ik1hgi/atv/24-mhz.htm"=20
                  =
target=3D_blank>http://www.qsl.net/ik1hgi/atv/24-mhz.htm</A><BR><BR>very =

                  kool.<BR><BR>it's in italian, so you might need to use =

                  babelfish to translate:<BR><BR><A=20
                  href=3D"http://babelfish.altavista.com/"=20
                  =
target=3D_blank>http://babelfish.altavista.com/</A></FONT></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
                  <P></P>
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                      <TD><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
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                  name=3Dpost19551></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B></B></FONT>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>i =
know this=20
                  sounds a bit far fetched, but the bazooka cantenna =
picked up=20
                  an AP 4 miles away.<BR><BR>from my house, which is on =
a hill,=20
                  i can pick up a certain AP w/ SNR 8dB (signal ~-88db) =
pretty=20
                  consistently using the bazooka. <BR>the biquad can =
find the AP=20
                  also, but w/ max SNR 4dB and it's very =
unstable...catches it=20
                  for only a second at a time.<BR><BR>well today, i was =
driving=20
                  on the freeway w/ my mobile mark clone sitting on my =
dash=20
                  inside the car, and picked up the same AP (same MAC =
addr &amp;=20
                  channel). when i plugged the GPS coords from NS into =
MS=20
                  S&amp;T, it measured 4 miles away from my house as the =
crow=20
                  flies. wonder what antenna they're using...from the =
SSID, it's=20
                  a local fire dept, and it's using Cisco =
hardware.</FONT></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1><I>Last edited by=20
                  lincomatic on 07-14-2002 at 01:06 AM</I></FONT></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost19698></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1><B>guerrilla.net collinear=20
                  kit</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" =
size=3D2>brian=20
                  oblivion of guerrilla.net told me they've worked=20
                  with<BR><BR><A href=3D"http://www.aerialix.com/"=20
                  target=3D_blank>http://www.aerialix.com/</A><BR><BR>to =
make kits=20
                  for their collinear design which come with prewound =
coils and=20
                  a fiberglass radome. there are also pre-assembled =
models.=20
                  also, they have surplus parabolic grids for $15-30=20
                  (!)</FONT></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
                  <P></P>
                  <P></P>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost19705></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>sparafina</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>yatta!</FONT><BR><IMG=20
                  alt=3D""=20
                  =
src=3D"http://forums.netstumbler.com/images/avatars/Mr_Yuk.gif"=20
                  border=3D0>
                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: May=20
                  2002<BR>Location: AUS/LAX/DCA<BR>Posts: =
168</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Re: =
guerrilla.net=20
                  collinear kit</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by lincomatic </I><BR><B>brian =
oblivion=20
                    of guerrilla.net told me they've worked =
with<BR><BR><A=20
                    href=3D"http://www.aerialix.com/"=20
                    =
target=3D_blank>http://www.aerialix.com/</A><BR><BR>to make=20
                    kits for their collinear design which come with =
prewound=20
                    coils and a fiberglass radome. there are also =
pre-assembled=20
                    models. also, they have surplus parabolic grids for =
$15-30=20
                    (!) </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Way cool, I'm guessing the kits =
are for=20
                  the low power omni and not the coax based =
collinear?</FONT>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><A =

                  name=3Dpost19711></A><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, =
helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
                  =
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#dfdfdf><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><B>Re: Re: =
guerrilla.net=20
                  collinear kit</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                    size=3D1>quote:</FONT>
                    <HR>
                    <I>Originally posted by sparafina =
</I><BR><B><BR><BR>Way=20
                    cool, I'm guessing the kits are for the low power =
omni and=20
                    not the coax based collinear? </B>
                    <HR>
                  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>i think so because:<BR>1) he =
mentions=20
                  prewound coils<BR>2) he told me about the aerialix =
when i=20
                  mentioned the link to the low power omni was =
dead.<BR><BR>but=20
                  i guess u can ask them to make sure. i'm thinking of =
getting=20
                  one of those parabolics to play with. would be nice to =
try=20
                  different feeds on them <IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  border=3D0></FONT>
                  <P></P>
                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
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                  =
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                  border=3D0> 07-15-2002 <FONT color=3D#666686>10:24=20
                AM</FONT></FONT></TD>
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                <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap width=3D175 bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><A =

                  name=3Dpost20618></A><A name=3Dnewpost></A><FONT=20
                  face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2><B>lincomatic</B></FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica=20
                  size=3D1>UberNetbumbler</FONT><BR><IMG alt=3D""=20
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                  <P><FONT face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica =
size=3D1>Registered: Apr=20
                  2002<BR>Location: Venus<BR>Posts: 880</FONT></P></TD>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#f1f1f1><FONT=20
                  face=3Dverdana,arial,helvetica size=3D1><IMG =
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                  =
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                  border=3D0> <B>collinear omni rocks</B></FONT>=20
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica" size=3D2>I =
finally=20
                  built the gnet low power collinear. Took forever, but =
it's=20
                  done, and it works great. full story:<BR><BR><A=20
                  =
href=3D"http://www.geocities.com/lincomatic/collinear.html"=20
                  =
target=3D_blank>http://www.geocities.com/lincomatic/collinear.html</A><BR=
><BR>I'm=20
                  going to try closing my sunroof onto it and stumbling =
with it=20
                  when i run some errands =
today.</FONT></P><!--<p>--><FONT=20
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                  <P>
                  <P><FONT face=3D"verdana, arial, helvetica"=20
                  size=3D2>__________________<BR>~lincomatic</FONT></P>
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